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 The Future
Colin Scott - July 16th 2019 12:42
Option C but with 2 Cups. Firstly, 22 league games is a short season. That might not be a bad thing for some but a 30 game league season has more scope for a harder fought season - at both ends of the table. Secondly, as itís only 3 divisions there should not be too much languishing in the lower leagues. Thirdly, the top flight could still be a Premier League with a bonus of some extra gate money for those teams at the top. The Cups - Leave Manager Cup as is or as close to that as possible. Group stage then knockout. However, the current League Cup is very similar to the Manager Cup so why not change it. We could go straight to knockout but have each tie split into two legs, home and away. Or we could come up with something different but, like Stewart, I prefer two cup competitions. Failing that then 4 divisions in one league would be my next best. A few weeks ago I jokingly stated that should we move to one league then Evo 1 should remain as Division 1 and everyone else slot in underneath. Itís interesting that this has been suggested for real with Origin 1 and 2 remaining the top two divisions. To be fair, thatís what I thought I had signed up for a few seasons ago.
Tim Batth - July 14th 2019 23:16

Options D & A for me too, in that order.

Brian Beerman - July 13th 2019 1:57
So far I agree with option D, followed closely by option A. How would the Divisional Cup(s) work if thereís one league? The Manager Cup already accounts for all teams. How would the Divisional Cup differ?
Paul Roseblade - July 13th 2019 1:40
Option D for me. The separate divisions for the 2 different leagues is like having Rival Leagues in the same country and then only meeting for the cups. Let's get everyone into the body of the Kirk. The divisions are sorted for the end of this season. Next starts but with Division 1 of Evolution as Division 3. So at the end of next season we start seeing the Evolution Teams coming up and Origin teams dropping down.
Stewart Miller - July 11th 2019 10:37

Adam, which option would give you the greatest flexibility to respond to either an influx of new managers or further depletion in our numbers? My biggest fear is that you spend a lot of time and effort working on a reconstruction process only to discover that this time next season we find ourselves with another significant number of manager-less clubs. I know you said that there are at least 12 clubs currently without a manager. I suspect it could be more with the possibily of further resignations before the new season begins. I therefore think that flexibility to respond to either situation in the coming close seasons should be key in whichever option you chose to adopt.

So looking at the four options presented, I would probably have chosen Option C but as it means losing a cup competition, its a non-starter in my book. I do like the cup competitions!

Option D is stated as being easy to code, it has flexibility should the number of managers expand or contract and it keeps two cup competitions. It is therefore my number 1 choice as things stand.

I like the sound of Option A but I'm afraid of how long it might take to code. Would it be better to move to this the season after next when Adam's had some time to plan the coding requirements? For that reason it is my second choice.

Option B excites me the least as I fear that if it is adopted then we will be having the same discussions this time next season.

James Tucker - July 11th 2019 8:43

Option D for me.  Could double promotion (and of course double relegation) be used to speed up progression through the ladder?  

In order of perference D, C, B then A.  I would prefer not to have any parrallel league structure.

I like that this league has a shorter league season, but if the preference for 16 in a divsion is the favoured option then I am happy with that also.  Option D is easy to expland, but also easy to contract. 

I am not too worried about old rivalries.  If we play USL less this might be a good thing.

Steve Allan - July 11th 2019 8:29

Option A seems very interesting to me, 1 bad season means you will almost certainly be relegated but at the same time if you decide to do a proper re-build you are only ever 1 season away from getting back up. To me the history and rivalries isn't a big deal, other than Richie at INB (and that is due to being friends away from the game) my rivalries don't really matter to me. 

 

Btw if we did option A then i would love to see the Manager cup become the straight unseeded knockout tourny.

Adam Meney - July 10th 2019 13:53

Good Stuff Guys,

Some good options to flesh out a bit.  All these options are going to be possible.  Some are a lot more messy than others.Ill set up a poll after a few responses to these.

What I meant by rivalries is not the selection of a team at the start of a season but the vast history that RUF vs QUO or SPT vs TED might have.  These clashes may be more seldom after reconstruction.  I also mean things like scoring records for a division with 12 teams and 22 matches will be blown away by a division of 16 and 30 matches. Things like that.

A pyramid Premier division with feeder divisions is exactly how I wanted to proceed with the structure when we moved to this version of the game. It did not go down so well with most of the managers if I remember correctly.  It was also harder to manage with say 3 feeder leagues.

I would love to have given a season or two notice for this to happend.  Sadly the time is now.

 

Option A: A Premier Division of 16 teams with 2 feeder divisions of 16.  Bottom 8 are relegated randomly into a feeder division. Top 3 plus playoff winner in each feeder gains promotion. We will continue the manager cup and run a 16 team divisional cup (4 groups of 4).

Pros: Gives every team a chance. Playing at the top is only ever a season away. More variety in divisions over time.  The competition will be strong.  Easy to flex the divisions and numbers to accomodate expansion.

Cons: History and key match ups may be lost. Financial corrections needed due to 30 match season.  Longer seasons in realtime (possible pro).  Promo/Relegation Code rewrite (minor/moderate). Feeder divisions competiion may suffer may suffer towards the end of the season.

 

Option B: 2 Leagues of 2 divisions of 12 teams. Pretty much as we are now.  Manager Cup, and a League cup.

Pros: Maintains a status quo to a degree.

Cons: Some teams will need to jump leagues. (minor code effort)

 

Option C: One League with 3 divisions of 16. Top/bottom 3 plus playoff winner/loser in each promoted/relegated. The Manager Cup. 

Pros. Easy enough to code. Financials remain in relative equilibrium. The competition will be strong.

Cons: Dropping a cup competition as there is little point in 2 cups.

 

Option D: One league with 4 divisions of 12. The Manager Cup.  Divisional Cup. Promotion as is just now.

Pros. Easy enough to code. Financials remain in relative equilibrium. Easy to expand should it ever happen again.

Cons: Languishing teams. 

 

Have a think and post if there are other options that should be considered.

Brian Beerman - July 10th 2019 2:04

I like how Roy thinks outside of the box. Not sure it will pass, or even if I think it's the best, but I do like the idea of one top premier division, with two different leagues playing for the chance to get to the top. Well done, Roy.

Roy Rolsten - July 9th 2019 21:27

That said, wasn't there a pipe dream mentioned somewhere about a pyramid league format?

With 50 teams we could have one 'Premier' division and then two feeder leagues (Evo & Origin)

each division with 10 teams, or 8=10/10+10/10 if we can't fill 2 spots.

4 relegated from top flight and two up from each lower league using similar playoffs as we currently have.

Roy Rolsten - July 9th 2019 21:17

I'd like to suggest any reformatting of the leagues that merges them takes place after the next season.

This would then allow teams that have been playing for promotion etc this season the reward for doing so

Then I'd suggest (if the merge goes ahead) that the top half of each Origin and Evo First Division forms the new top division.

Then the Second Division is formed from the non-relegated teams from the rest the top divisions and the promoted sides from the Evo and Origin second divisions.

And so on. 

James Tucker - July 9th 2019 9:59

My favoured option, like Paul, is a straight 48 team league with 4 divisions.  3up / 3 down, with a playoff for a 4th spot. 

You could still have two cups.  One for all 48 teams.  The other of 24 each. One for the top 2 division, one for the bottom 2 divisions.  This should leave revenue pretty much unaffected.  

David King - July 8th 2019 22:34

History and Statistics.
I suspect this boild down to moving from one league to another and losing your history as the databases do not carry over.
When we moved from the old system to purely online a number of the older teams lost vast chunks of our history.

This may be the price we pay though for a move. Pertinent items like championships and cups will be reserved even if only by manually noting them.

revenue.
Always the same. if you chnage the total number of available matches then you have to balance the books accordingly.

Rivalries

Cross league rivalries will be broken i suspect. but they can be chosen in pre-season so not a huge deal.

Database/Coding. leave to the boss person. Adam will know what's achievable.

Healthy Competition?

The first season or so may be unbalanced in some divisions but it'll fix itself pretty quickly with a couple of promotions and relegations i'm sure.

2 sets of 12 in each league seems easier..

We only lose origin Div 3.

After promotion and relegation have been done, Take out the managerless teams and move everyone up the way to fill gaps.  Shuffle the bottom teams over into the emptier league as required. perhap look for lovwer league volunteers to move.

 

 

 



 

Ellis Simpson - July 8th 2019 17:08

I like Stewart's idea that the options depend on what is achievable with least effort by Adam. And so, if Adam could indicate, that would be helpful. 

Paul Roseblade - July 7th 2019 11:09
League reconstruction is always a strong debate. Look how long the Scottish structure has remained in situe regardless of what the fans think. The chairmen own all the top cards and are protecting themselves in spite of a massive groundswell for change. Personally I would like a straightforward 4 leagues of 12. That way there is a clear pyramid up and down the ladders. I would have a 3 up and 3 down. With the next 2 involved in a playoff. Not sure on the coding involved in that plus all the other aspects involved as Adam has already mentioned.
Brian Beerman - June 29th 2019 16:10

Stewart, I think Adam will provide the options once he gets some ideas and feedback here. I know as of today I would vote for the 2 leagues of 2 divisions.

 

Adam, What do you mean by History and Statistics? What might/would be impacted with the possible changes? I want to provide feedback there, but not sure what to consider. I don't know how to factor revenue, so would need an idea possible pros and cons. I would think rivalries would remain at two per team. When you note coding expectations, are you trying to factor how much work each possible scenario would require? What code is our game written in? Perhaps some of us could help code?

Stewart Miller - June 29th 2019 7:29

League reconstruction was debated to a large extent a few seasons ago. At that time it was a bit like Brexit in that opinion was fairly evenly split between one camp who wanted to continue with two separate leagues while the other wanted a combined league. I therefore think we will see similar again. As I mentioned in the Blog, a key factor will probably be what is possible from your own perspective in terms of programming and time. I therefore suggest you give us a couple of options to vote on which you think you can programme easily and quickly.

For what it's worth, my own personal preference is for one league of 3x16 or 4x12 teams with two cup competitions. I don't mind how the teams are assigned into each division.

Steve Gregory - June 29th 2019 6:25
I agree with Jon, 2 leagues X 2 divisions X 12 clubs is the neatest format. Fours divisions in one league sounds a little unwieldy, although it does have one thing in its favour, in that it would be more resilient in the event that we lose more managers. But maybe we cross that bridge when we come to it.
Jon Love - June 29th 2019 3:30

2 leagues of 2 divisions of 12 clubs seems like  nice round solution. Not sure how you would put which clubs where though.

Or 1 league with 4 divisions. same problem as above but a bit more complicated depending on which teams were managerless that is. Either works for me, maybe pcik which is less tricky to code / make data changes.

Adam Meney - June 28th 2019 13:21

Hi,

As you know there are a few teams who are managerless.  This number has reached 12 so a division will be removed lleaving us with 48 clubs.

Some teams will be removed from Origin and some from Evo making a change to our regular competition structure inevitable for next season onwards.

Please leave suggestions here as to what we should do.  Ill read everything and take as much into account as possible before committing to anything.

<br><br>

Things I need to consider:-

History and Statistics

Total Available Revenue

Rivalries

Valid Cup Competitions

Coding Expectations

Database Scehema Changes

Healthy Competition

<br><br>

Please join the debate and help us got to the best possible outcome.

 

 

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